Conversations -The Immaculate Conception

[kimi]

Sensitive subject on religion matters, proceed with caution. Lol. I will suggest that we debate amicably without putting down another's point of view. 

For a long time, I have felt most uncomfortable about the portion of the Bible where we are told that Mary was with child. Was consent ever given? Is it not rather disturbing the manner in which all these happened?

Please share your thoughts. 

[scarlet]

@kimi what do you aim to achieve with these kind of question, eh? Are you insinuating that the Holy Spirit through the directions of God raped mary to birth Jesus?! Because I don't seem to understand where this is all headed. If you are skeptic of scriptural account hence your unbelieve towards Christianity then leave it be for those who believe in it,  Inspite the decrepancies.  

Just so you know; Mary gave a "verbal consent" and I quote her verbatim.  Behold, "I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word". Matthew chapter 1, read from 18 down, also (Luke chapter 1vs 85)

And I think,  this is consent enough,   moreover she was a woman who loved God,  and she had an unwavering faith, enmeshed with utter commitment towards God's word and his works. you could imagine how "delighted" she must have been to actually be a source of instrument for God's work and a blessing to the whole world at large. 

To be clear,  in the sequence of events given,  it is not until after Mary consents that the child Jesus is conceived, (which the story says,  occurs through the "overshadowing" of the Holy Spirit.

Make una dey fear God,  with the kain questions way una they ask. 

[kimi]

1 hour ago, scarlet said:

 

@kimi what do you aim to achieve with these kind of question, eh? Are you insinuating that the Holy Spirit through the directions of God raped mary to birth Jesus?! Because I don't seem to understand where this is all headed. If you are skeptic of scriptural account hence your unbelieve towards Christianity then leave it be for those who believe in it,  Inspite the decrepancies.  

 

Scarlet. You must learn how to engage in discuss without making things personal. You had a choice to stay away from this thread as I clearly put up a disclaimer.

Don't be overly sensitive. As an intelligent being you must question and analyse. It is the only way you grow and argue based on facts rather than sentiments.

I have not put up this post to mock, if you see it that way then that is solely on you. Please learn to engage amicably.

I could take offense at the bolded but In my usual peaceful manner, I would not.

1 hour ago, scarlet said:

Make una dey fear God,  with the kain questions way una they ask. 

Living in fear is in consequence not living at all. 

That said, thanks for the scripture references. I'll check it out. 

[VINA]

You are right @scarlet mary was told before hand and she seemed pleased and honoured to do the job. God never forces anyone and He knows the heart of man, Mary was a faithful young girl with the fear of God.

[Keke]

I'm not here, I travel to DRC on a peacekeeping mission

[kimi]

2 minutes ago, Keke said:

I'm not here, I travel to DRC on a peacekeeping mission

Hahahahaha. Journey mercies

[Mimy]

Virgin Mary Vs Holy Spirit, boom! Baby Jesus! 

sound more like a cover story of a prenuptial scandal. Mary got to save her ass. Lol

on a serious note before even considering either consent was given or not, the whole virgin birth ordeal is not plausible other than the claim that it was a miracle and the problem I have with such claim is that, no miracle has ever been proven, not one. 

[Midnighter]

🚶🚶🚶

Tables 😁😁. 

[Dipbluesae]

21 hours ago, Gimbiyya said:

Virgin Mary Vs Holy Spirit, boom! Baby Jesus! 

sound more like a cover story of a prenuptial scandal. Mary got to save her ass. Lol

on a serious note before even considering either consent was given or not, the whole virgin birth ordeal is not plausible other than the claim that it was a miracle and the problem I have with such claim is that, no miracle has ever been proven, not one. 

I usually read your writings about Christianity and each time I kind of stop myself from replying to avoid fights and all.. 

I don't mean to be offensive but can you just believe what you believe without looking down on others or making them seem like they are fools for what they believe in; I mean like leave Christianity the heck alone!

Muslim as a religion, in my opinion, it is a religion that believes in... Like I said, as much as prenuptial bla bla bla that Christianity is, I'll choose it anytime!

No offense! 

[Mimy]

@DipBluSae

"The fool says in his heart, "There is no God.""

Does this 👆 hurt the feelings of nonbelievers too? No? Because your Bible said so right. 

It's okay for your religion to call others fool for simply not agreeing with them yea? I'm sure you don't have problem with those derogatory names your religion use for nonbelievers. Yea filthy heathens that aren't worthy of being yoked together with the pious believers is just fine. Of course you have no problem with a belief that condemned nonbelievers to an imaginary bottomless pit of hell for eternity but it suddenly become and issue when these nonbelievers condemn these beliefs to the waste bin where they should belong by now. Sorry hun, I will not leave Christianity alone when Christianity and other beliefs refuse to leave me alone. 

 

And oh, I don't care about Islam and its cousin, Christianity either. Humanity is better off without these beliefs.

[scarlet]

On 3/29/2018 at 1:03 PM, kimi said:

Scarlet. You must learn how to engage in discuss without making things personal. You had a choice to stay away from this thread as I clearly put up a disclaimer.

Don't be overly sensitive. As an intelligent being you must question and analyse. It is the only way you grow and argue based on facts rather than sentiments.

Personal you say? Far from that actually,  I only wanted to correct the impression of "non consent", which I think I already did. 

On 3/29/2018 at 1:03 PM, kimi said:

I have not put up this post to mock, if you see it that way then that is solely on you. Please learn to engage amicably.

You saying this still doesn't change the fact that your post reeked of toned accusation and contempt. There's a distinct difference between asking a harmless question for clarity and outright accusation. 

And my bad, I just cant turn a blind eye to it. If you hadn't put up this post to mock, then why did you put it up? To spite Christians? Judge God? 

See, you can either believe in God and Goodness, or you could believe it's pointless, cruel and a random thing/book. I don't care. It'd still never make you happier.  abi, does it???? 

On 3/29/2018 at 1:03 PM, kimi said:

I could take offense at the bolded but In my usual peaceful manner, I would not.

Apologies if I came too hard on you.  

[Hawken]

7 hours ago, Gimbiyya said:

@DipBluSae

"The fool says in his heart, "There is no God.""

Does this 👆 hurt the feelings of nonbelievers too? No? Because your Bible said so right. 

It's okay for your religion to call others fool for simply not agreeing with them yea? I'm sure you don't have problem with those derogatory names your religion use for nonbelievers. Yea filthy heathens that aren't worthy of being yoked together with the pious believers is just fine. Of course you have no problem with a belief that condemned nonbelievers to an imaginary bottomless pit of hell for eternity but it suddenly become and issue when these nonbelievers condemn these beliefs to the waste bin where they should belong by now. Sorry hun, I will not leave Christianity alone when Christianity and other beliefs refuse to leave me alone

And then what? Christianity and lets say by extension aggressive Christians bash you & you respond by bashing back? To what end? Bashing each other to death?

What you are doing is tantamount to attacking EVERY straight person for things HOMOPHOBIC straight people say/do.

Feel free to question and analyze organized religion. Feel free to share your findings and opinions too. But I would advice that you keep the bashing, derogatory/insulting comments and etc to spaces where atheists are been treated the same. Otherwise you are just being unnecessarily aggravating and repetitive. And tbh, right now its quite stale.

PS if your agenda is to spread atheist values and all you do is mock and derogate, anybody with a bit of common sense would be put off by that attitude. Do better and then maybe people would actually listen to what you have to say and learn a thing or two. As opposed to them feeling cornered and then having to defend themselves and their beliefs.

[Hawken]

The last time I checked, Kimi believed in God (correct me if that have changed oh @kimi) Her question i believe was born out of curiosity and want of clarification. But because some members have decided to only question Christianity when they want to mock and ridicule, the vision of some other Christian members have become colored with the blood of persistent unnecessary and annoying attacks. All they now see is "attack attack attack" 😆😆

You all need to start do better.

I'm perfect 😇😊

[Dipbluesae]

Just now, Hawken said:

And then what? Christianity and lets say by extension aggressive Christians bash you & you respond by bashing back? To what end? Bashing each other to death?

What you are doing is tantamount to attacking EVERY straight person for things HOMOPHOBIC straight people say/do.

Feel free to question and analyze organized religion. Feel free to share your findings and opinions too. But I would advice that you keep the bashing, derogatory/insulting comments and etc to spaces where atheists are been treated the same. Otherwise you are just being unnecessarily aggravating and repetitive. And tbh, right now its quite stale.

PS if your agenda is to spread atheist values and all you do is mock and derogate, anybody with a bit of common sense would be put off by that attitude. Do better and then maybe people would actually listen to what you have to say and learn a thing or two. As opposed to them feeling cornered and then having to defend themselves and their beliefs.

I have heard..Ma'am

[Dipbluesae]

8 hours ago, Gimbiyya said:

@DipBluSae

And oh, I don't care about Islam and its cousin, Christianity either. Humanity is better off without these beliefs.

Maybe if you talk about other religions the way you talk of Christianity, I'd be forced to believe that..👆

[Hawken]

35 minutes ago, DipBluSae said:

I have heard..Ma'am

😂😂 that write up wasn't for you. It was for Gimbiyya and i forgot to remove your handle when i responded to her post. My bad 😀

[Mimy]

10 hours ago, DipBluSae said:

Maybe if you talk about other religions the way you talk of Christianity, I'd be forced to believe that..👆

Lol you need to go through the trends again, this time slowly then you'd notice I have a problem with organized religions not just your favorite one.  

[Mimy]

@Hawken if you'd be sincere, you'd see I mostly present points to counter the religious claims I find ridiculous in most of my engagement here. People indoctrinated to believe their faith shouldn't be questioned or criticized are usually overly sensitive when anyone question or criticize their beliefs that a harmless criticism will be term mockery. 

Recruit? Lol that's religious people thing else why will an African have business with Middle Eastern gods and even kill for it. Unless you're saying all the topics/trends put up here is to recruit rather than to express opinion. I don't bash believers but the believe itself. It's not a crime to criticize ideas. Blasphemy laws were put to shut people up. Religion has already made it difficult for people to criticize it openly without getting lynch by overzealous believers. Do you want to shut me up here too? 

[Dipbluesae]

21 hours ago, Hawken said:

😂😂 that write up wasn't for you. It was for Gimbiyya and i forgot to remove your handle when i responded to her post. My bad 😀

Still applies to me.. thanks

[Hawken]

6 hours ago, Gimbiyya said:

@HawkenDo you want to shut me up here too? 

All I'm asking is you respect other peoples decision/opinions where religion is concerned.

Yes, you present counter arguments (criticisms if you will) but you do it in a mocking and disdainful manner. If you must criticize, aim for constructive criticism.

[Midnighter]

17 hours ago, Hawken said:

All I'm asking is you respect other peoples decision/opinions where religion is concerned.

Yes, you present counter arguments (criticisms if you will) but you do it in a mocking and disdainful manner. If you must criticize, aim for constructive criticism

There is no such thing as constructive criticism of religion. 

For most religious people, their sense of self is taken from their religion. Living by a certain doctrine taken from whichever religious books is applicable. People are incapable of separating self from religion.

So any criticism of the religion is taken as a criticism of self. It isnt just seen as a criticism of self but also attack of a value system. 

If I ask a question regarding religion, the response will never be based on just that question, it will be based on the feeling the question invoked. Infact, asking questions has historically led to prosecution and persecution of people.

On respecting other people's decisions/opinions, no religion is a respecter of other people's decisions/opinions. That is why people are always trying to convert "non-believers". Anyone with deferring views is either burning for ethernity, an infidel or someone who should not be associated with. Every religion has a text about what will happen with unbelievers. 

The thing is that atheists are doing exactly what religious people have done for years.

So if you are ok with the following;

 - Entering a bus and having someone preach, or

- Your neighbourhood church with the loud speakers, or

- Your neighbourhood mosques with their morning prayers or

- Handing church pamphlets out to random stranger who you dont know from Adam;

You shouldnt take offense at atheists telling you how they feel about your religion. Everyone is just expressing their views.

And please feel free to tell me how it is ok for preaching to happen everywhere and atheists cant say they dont agree with the text of a certain religion.

[Hawken]

@Midnighter

First, there is nothing that cannot be constructively criticized. Religion included. To say otherwise would mean there is no room for change or improvement and that is not true.

Secondly, if people were incapable of separating self from religion like you have said then we wouldn’t have homosexual Christians. As a self serving specie, there is very little we cannot separate ourselves from. The reason you may think otherwise is because we are hypocrites. A lot of Christians do the very things(and worse) that they condemn publicly, in private.

"So any criticism of the religion is taken as a criticism of self. It isn’t just seen as a criticism of self but also attack of a value system." Any criticism? Are you saying because i am a Christian i cannot tell between criticism aimed to mock & ridicule and one aimed to enlighten?

"If I ask a question regarding religion, the response will never be based on just that question, it will be based on the feeling the question invoked. In fact, asking questions has historically led to prosecution and persecution of people." Historically in Christianity yes. Present day? Not so much. Do you see now where constructive criticism comes into play? Also, please do not generalize, your statement insinuates that all Christians are incapable of being objective.

"On respecting other people's decisions/opinions, no religion is a respecter of other people's decisions/opinions". I agree and obviously, atheism is no different. All i see from 80% of atheists is how stupid or ridiculous it is to still believe in a supreme God in 2018.

"The thing is that atheists are doing exactly what religious people have done for years." You mean being a nuisance? Forcing ideals down peoples throats? Mocking other peoples beliefs? Being bigots? You mean the very things that atheists claim to despise? Religion and atheism is beginning to look the same now. By the way, let us not ignore the fact that the worse (i hope) of Christianitys history is in its past. Are atheists going to start slaughtering people now because that's what religious people have done for years? (I know lol, i just felt like reaching)

“So if you are ok with the following;

Entering a bus and having someone preach, your neighborhood church with the loud speakers, your neighborhood mosques with their morning prayers or handing church pamphlets out to random strangers,, You shouldn't take offense at atheists telling you how they feel about your religion.”

I am not okay with any of the above. Never handed pamphlets out in my life and very recently signed a petition against a church that was disturbing my peace.  Am i allowed now to take offense as to HOW atheists express the way they feel about my decision to believe in a supreme God?

I'd like to commend you manner of approach, if everybody adopted it, we wouldn't be having this conversation (pro or con? hehe) but it seems you missed my entire point. Which is;

Atheists ON NL can criticize all they want, all i am asking is that they do so without the mocking, condescending and ITK attitude that they use. Let people hold their beliefs to their chest if they want. Hold yours. But if you are going to question my beliefs, do it respectfully and without scorn. It is not IMPOSSIBLE.

[Txunamy]

23 minutes ago, Hawken said:

@Midnighter

First, there is nothing that cannot be constructively criticized. Religion included. To say otherwise would mean there is no room for change or improvement and that is not true.

Secondly, if people were incapable of separating self from religion like you have said then we wouldn’t have homosexual Christians. As a self serving specie, there is very little we cannot separate ourselves from. The reason you may think otherwise is because we are hypocrites. A lot of Christians do the very things(and worse) that they condemn publicly, in private.

"So any criticism of the religion is taken as a criticism of self. It isn’t just seen as a criticism of self but also attack of a value system." Any criticism? Are you saying because i am a Christian i cannot tell between criticism aimed to mock & ridicule and one aimed to enlighten?

"If I ask a question regarding religion, the response will never be based on just that question, it will be based on the feeling the question invoked. In fact, asking questions has historically led to prosecution and persecution of people." Historically in Christianity yes. Present day? Not so much. Do you see now where constructive criticism comes into play? Also, please do not generalize, your statement insinuates that all Christians are incapable of being objective.

"On respecting other people's decisions/opinions, no religion is a respecter of other people's decisions/opinions". I agree and obviously, atheism is no different. All i see from 80% of atheists is how stupid or ridiculous it is to still believe in a supreme God in 2018.

"The thing is that atheists are doing exactly what religious people have done for years." You mean being a nuisance? Forcing ideals down peoples throats? Mocking other peoples beliefs? Being bigots? You mean the very things that atheists claim to despise? Religion and atheism is beginning to look the same now. By the way, let us not ignore the fact that the worse (i hope) of Christianitys history is in its past. Are atheists going to start slaughtering people now because that's what religious people have done for years? (I know lol, i just felt like reaching)

“So if you are ok with the following;

Entering a bus and having someone preach, your neighborhood church with the loud speakers, your neighborhood mosques with their morning prayers or handing church pamphlets out to random strangers,, You shouldn't take offense at atheists telling you how they feel about your religion.”

I am not okay with any of the above. Never handed pamphlets out in my life and very recently signed a petition against a church that was disturbing my peace.  Am i allowed now to take offense as to HOW atheists express the way they feel about my decision to believe in a supreme God?

I'd like to commend you manner of approach, if everybody adopted it, we wouldn't be having this conversation (pro or con? hehe) but it seems you missed my entire point. Which is;

Atheists ON NL can criticize all they want, all i am asking is that they do so without the mocking, condescending and ITK attitude that they use. Let people hold their believes to their chest if they want. Hold yours. But if you are going to question my beliefs, do it respectfully and without scorn. It is not IMPOSSIBLE.

Someone pls get me a pom pom, I want to cheer Hawken.. 

Well said.. 

Christ is Risen, Alleluia! 

[Hawken]

3 minutes ago, Ivyy said:

Someone pls get me a pom pom, I want to cheer Hawken.. 

Well said.. 

Christ is Risen, Alleluia! 

i want to ask "why are you like this" but i'm sure even you nor know..

Meanwhileeee, i want this cheering to be private performance, with short skirt and crop top *waggles eyebrows*

[Mimy]

18 minutes ago, Hawken said:

Atheists ON NL can criticize all they want, all i am asking is that they do so without the mocking, condescending and ITK attitude that they use. Let people hold their believes to their chest if they want. Hold yours. But if you are going to question my beliefs, do it respectfully and without scorn. It is not IMPOSSIBLE.

How do one criticize/question religion without it being considered as mockery? Like the OP above, is actually an harmless question yet the first person that responded became overly emotional and took offense and accused the OP of mocking her beliefs. This is always the case with majority of believers. 

Nobody is dragging anyone's belief with them. Could it be this beliefs is just too fragile that the slightest scrutiny threaten the holder hence they quickly take offense and shut people up by crying "dont mock my god".