Conversations -The Immaculate Conception

[kimi]

This is a thought I have mused over for the last couple of days:

I have found that religion has taught us to fight for and protect God. Truth is, people forget that God is more than capable of handling him/her/itself. 

[Hawken]

59 minutes ago, Gimbiyya said:

How do one criticize/question religion without it being considered as mockery?

Easy. Don't say shit like this "By the way, why did this God so much want us to believe and worship him least he roast us in his celestial oven. Silly God craving for attention. Lol"

1 hour ago, Gimbiyya said:

Like the OP above, is actually an harmless question yet the first person that responded became overly emotional and took offense and accused the OP of mocking her beliefs. This is always the case with majority of believers.

"Could it be this beliefs is just too fragile that the slightest scrutiny threaten the holder hence they quickly take offense and shut people up by crying "don't mock my god". 

Does the following look familiar? "Just that the extremely discrimination constantly meant towards gay people has turn some homosexuals and pro gay overly sensitive on the slightest hint of any perceived discrimination." Well, that's what happened here.

Like i said before, be constructive or at least respectful with your criticism and people won't have to get defensive.

Shalom.

[Hawken]

1 hour ago, kimi said:

This is a thought I have mused over for the last couple of days:

I have found that religion has taught us to fight for and protect God. Truth is, people forget that God is more than capable of handling him/her/itself. 

this reminds me of

Mum- Hawken why did break his head?

Me - He called him mum, not you. mad.

Mum - But you know i'm not mad and you should have come to tell me.

Me - Nah brah, you weren't there. My justice was swift and deserved.

The above is a real life (more or less) conversation between my mum and I.

[Mimy]

8 hours ago, Hawken said:

Easy. Don't say shit like this "By the way, why did this God so much want us to believe and worship him least he roast us in his celestial oven. Silly God craving for attention. Lol"

Does the following look familiar? "Just that the extremely discrimination constantly meant towards gay people has turn some homosexuals and pro gay overly sensitive on the slightest hint of any perceived discrimination." Well, that's what happened here.

Like i said before, be constructive or at least respectful with your criticism and people won't have to get defensive.

Shalom.

Lol you can twist this issue however you like. Still doesn't change the fact that religious people can't stand their supposed all powerful God being criticized. Thanks to people that pushed for secularism to ensure God business stays personal else the church will have still be burning us to the stake or drowning us for questioning God. Not like this barbarism has stop totally, religious infested countries still execute people who disagree with their God.

If a God threaten to roast me in his oven for eternity for simply not acknowledging him, will it not be fair to call such a God, silly? Calling such a God silly is actually a euphemism.

[kimi]

7 hours ago, Hawken said:

this reminds me of

Mum- Hawken why did break his head?

Me - He called him mum, not you. mad.

Mum - But you know i'm not mad and you should have come to tell me.

Me - Nah brah, you weren't there. My justice was swift and deserved.

The above is a real life (more or less) conversation between my mum and I.

Hahahaha.... I know. It's called love. The human way of expressing love. Lol

[Txunamy]

11 hours ago, Hawken said:

i want to ask "why are you like this" but i'm sure even you nor know..

Meanwhileeee, i want this cheering to be private performance, with short skirt and crop top *waggles eyebrows*

😁 

 

[Txunamy]

9 hours ago, Hawken said:

this reminds me of

Mum- Hawken why did break his head?

Me - He called him mum, not you. mad.

Mum - But you know i'm not mad and you should have come to tell me.

Me - Nah brah, you weren't there. My justice was swift and deserved.

The above is a real life (more or less) conversation between my mum and I.

Hahahahaha!

The person no dey fear face? 😁 

[dreamgal]

On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 11:00 AM, kimi said:

Sensitive subject on religion matters, proceed with caution. Lol. I will suggest that we debate amicably without putting down another's point of view. 

For a long time, I have felt most uncomfortable about the portion of the Bible where we are told that Mary was with child. Was consent ever given? Is it not rather disturbing the manner in which all these happened?

Please share your thoughts. 

How Dare you ask your maker for consent😁😁😁

 

[Midnighter]

12 hours ago, Hawken said:

First, there is nothing that cannot be constructively criticized. Religion included. To say otherwise would mean there is no room for change or improvement and that is not true.

Love your response and thank you. I feel like you didnt get most of the points I made so I will clarify.

I am not saying that atheists/non believers dont give constructive criticism, I meant the people been advised will see it as an attack on them. You are probably in the <1% who wont see criticism as mockery. 

@kimi just asked a question which I thought was going to spark a consent talk in religion but you see how that went.

12 hours ago, Hawken said:

Secondly, if people were incapable of separating self from religion like you have said then we wouldn’t have homosexual Christians. As a self serving specie, there is very little we cannot separate ourselves from. The reason you may think otherwise is because we are hypocrites. A lot of Christians do the very things(and worse) that they condemn publicly, in private.

This is why a lot a atheists dont understand why people can be gay and accept Christianity. To be honest, I personally dont understand the rationale especially when the bible clearly states that;

...just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 7)

 

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Leviticus 20:13)

Most people are just trying to understand and that is why they ask this questions. It always comes across as mockery. I will like to understand and if you can shed a light on this, that will be great.

12 hours ago, Hawken said:

On respecting other people's decisions/opinions, no religion is a respecter of other people's decisions/opinions". I agree and obviously, atheism is no different. All i see from 80% of atheists is how stupid or ridiculous it is to still believe in a supreme God in 2018.

 

You dont know 80% of atheists, so maybe 80% of atheists you know will be more appropriate. 

Atheists are humans and humans like to win arguments which the religious discussions have turned into. Both parties bickering on who is right or wrong. I cant speak on what drives all atheists but I can explain a little reason for the aggression. 

- I have found that most atheists/agnostics who have never practiced any religion or lived in a religious environment dont give a shit about the religious argument. It is not part of their daily realities. 

- Now, people who were once religious and now atheists/agnostics is a totally different story. We realise either suddenly or gradually that all we have been taught, forced to live by is incorrect. Especially people raised strictly or pastors/imam kids. You say there is no more prosecution/persecution of atheists and I will give you examples;

- People locked up in psychiatric homes because of rejection of religion. Happened as recently as last year in this country.

- People disowned by their families. This is constant. 

- Classic; atheist and gay/bi. You will barely be able to get a long term and viable relationship. 

- Not telling co-workers that you are atheist for fear of marginalization. 

- People killed because they were non believers. 

Saw a meme where someone said they will rather their kid is locked in with a paedophile than for them to be atheist. 

So why killings might be "reduced", all form of tortures continue either psychologically or physically. And that is restricting experiences to Nigeria. 

The derision might come from having experienced all these, believing what you believe and seeing hypocrites everywhere. Thats why some (not 80%) of atheist will mock or look down on believers.

13 hours ago, Hawken said:

Entering a bus and having someone preach, your neighborhood church with the loud speakers, your neighborhood mosques with their morning prayers or handing church pamphlets out to random strangers,, You shouldn't take offense at atheists telling you how they feel about your religion.”

I am not okay with any of the above. Never handed pamphlets out in my life and very recently signed a petition against a church that was disturbing my peace.  Am i allowed now to take offense as to HOW atheists express the way they feel about my decision to believe in a supreme God?

Kudos on not been ok with this but again you are less than 1%. You live here and even you cant deny that the majority of the population dont feel like you feel.

13 hours ago, Hawken said:

Atheists ON NL can criticize all they want, all i am asking is that they do so without the mocking, condescending and ITK attitude that they use. Let people hold their beliefs to their chest if they want. Hold yours. But if you are going to question my beliefs, do it respectfully and without scorn. It is not IMPOSSIBLE.

I understand where you are coming from. I also believe i have covered why some seem like mockery without it being so and some people will always engage from a place of anger. 

We can agree that religion is a very touchy subject which is entwined with our daily life. I dont know if there is a religious section of the forum maybe the admins can create that and religious discussions can be had there instead. 

[scarlet]

1 hour ago, Midnighter said:

..

I personally dont understand the rationale especially when the bible clearly states that;

...just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 7)

 

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Leviticus 20:13)

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 7)

 

You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22)

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Leviticus 20:13)

 

I want to throw more light as to why some "Gays" like myself are Christians despite the Bible stance  on homosexuality in the Old Testament. 

When the Bible is used to condemn homosexuality by the laity,  it is out of theological context. Most naive religious people use their emotions to put words in the mouth of the true living universal God, which is the God of Jesus.

who when confronted with the law of the "Tenakh", also known as the "Old Testament", despite saying he has not come to change the "law and the prophets", which specifically condemns adultery to be punishable by death,  he replied to the pharisees as "hypocrites" with a simple statement. " Let anyone amongst you without sin be the first to cast a stone at her. John chapter 8 Vs 6.  This very verse sums up the stand of this master on what are perceived as abrogations of "Jewish" sexual morality today.

I think we should be very careful when attempting to say what God condemns or condemns not. The God of Jesus is El Elyon, from the Canaanite tradition of whom Abraham is said to have paid tribute to his priest Melchizedek. The God of the Pharisees was Yahweh, whom Moses enforced from his encounter on the Mountain of Sinai.

The Book of Hebrews tells us explicitly that Jesus was a priest after the order of Melchizedek. The more ancient tradition of El Elyon seems to express a greater compassion for humanity as "Abraham himself plead for Sodom and Gomorrah" (Genesis chapter 18 Vs 16 -33) not to be destroyed. In this reflection, which is purely biblical, we find no just cause for the condemnation of anyone for their sexual preferences and those judging put themselves first against Christ and challenge  themselves such that any sexual "malpractice" they have violated as instituted by Moses from Yahweh, should result in their immediate condemnation and death. Remember, Jesus too is quoted as saying that to even "look" after a women with lust is to have committed adultery. So who can throw a stone?? In Jesus mythos, the Universal Christ consciousness is that which is revealed to humanity. hence love is the highest law, whether a human have a different sexual preference  than your own,  we are called to love one another. (Matthew 22: 36-40)

Love thy brother and sister as thyself. When he spoke of the parable of the good Samaritan, his point was that there is no distinction in who that love should be given to.

That said, Christ did not condemn homosexuality. Show me anywhere in the New Testament were he did. . So,  you can see for yourself why some " gays" clung to his teachings.  

I really appreciate how you came in and handle this delicately. @Gimbiya  should learn from this. 

Keep the conversation going. ☺

[Mimy]

Erm but Gimbiyya isn't the initiator of the OP you came at na. 

@Midnighter I second this motion. It'd be nice a forum be created for religious discuss here, seeing that the number of Atheists, Agnostics, skeptics here is on the rise. So those who can't keep up with the heat can stay off such trends.

[Hawken]

@Midnighter

"This is why a lot a atheists don't understand why people can be gay and accept Christianity. To be honest, I personally don't understand the rationale especially when the bible clearly states that;

...just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 7)"

#LOGICAL POV
 I take to religion(definitely more strongly) like I take to politics. If I were an American, I'd be a democrat but it doesn't mean that i agree 100% with what being a democrat stands for. However, It does mean that being a democrat most closely represents my values, concerns, and ideals. That is, as opposed to any other political party.

#Biblical POV
"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." -Ecclesiastes 7:20

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." - 1 John 1:8

"If you, O LORD, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?" - Psalm 130:3

The bible is well aware that no man is perfect. At some point he will sin, sometimes continuously, not matter how hard he tries. But that doesn't make him any less of a christian. People seem to believe God is looking for perfection in Christians. But If you are perfect, then what do you need him for?

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast" - Ephesians 2:8-9

"Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace"  - Romans 6:14

(https://www.knowingthebible.net/the-mosaic-covenant) if you have the time, read that article. It does a better job at explaining why its possible to be gay and Christian. The laws to which the Israelites were bound are not the laws to which Christians from AD (after death) are bound

Atheists are humans and humans like to win arguments which the religious discussions have turned into. I love to win arguments but i try never to be insulting or disdainful because i want to pass across a point. This is a basic rule of intellectual engagement.

As for instances of people being persecuted, I'd like instances relating to Christianity (minus disowning. African parents disown left and right. Even my mum threatened to disown if i didn't remove the punk that was on my head ). I can't speak for any other religion, after all, i disagree with them.

Saw a meme where someone said they will rather their kid is locked in with a pedophile than for them to be atheist. Personally i don't think this has anything to do with religion. That person is just a mad person and doesn't deserve children.

"Kudos on not been ok with this but again you are less than 1%." Lets make that less than 1% of the Christians you know. As you do not know all Christians after all. Meanwhile, this is the time to point out the fact that, our generation is the "woke one". A lot of young Christians think like i do. If we didn't, atheists on here would be catching proper heat. So as regards to NL as a space, atheists should respect the fact that Christians on here are respecting their decision to be agnostic. When you created a thread to that effect, i didn't see any Christian trying to body you or other atheists (compare that to other religious posts on here). That wouldn't have been the case if our parents or their generations were here.

 

 

[Midnighter]

36 minutes ago, Hawken said:

https://www.knowingthebible.net/the-mosaic-covenant) if you have the time, read that article. It does a better job at explaining why its possible to be gay and Christian

I really still dont get it. I have engaged with people who are gay and practitioners of several religions who dont support their lifestyles; their responses dont cut it for me. That is totally ok though. I will always have my questions and I have not heard logical response for me but I also know that Logic is relative.

41 minutes ago, Hawken said:

The laws to which the Israelites were bound are not the laws to which Christians from AD (after death) are bound

Same confusion for me; if a book is the word or words of a religion, I cant understand the separation but it isnt for me to understand, it is not my belief or ideology.

 

1 hour ago, Hawken said:

As for instances of people being persecuted, I'd like instances relating to Christianity (minus disowning. African parents disown left and right. Even my mum threatened to disown if i didn't remove the punk that was on my head ). I can't speak for any other religion, after all, i disagree with them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

On letting colleagues know that you dont believe in any religion, both Christans/Muslims will let you hear it at work depending on where you work. 

Several taking your child for deliverances and preventing access to friends have been experienced by young atheists in this country.

Disowning of kids is not just for African parents and misbehaving children. Atheists get disowned a lot by their parents. Check for ex Jehovah's witness experiences for atheists. No one from your family will ever speak to you again. 

I find that there is extremism in all religions or ideologies because take that away and humans are what remains. Humans will always find a way to push whatever agenda they want but will always hide it under religion or whatever ideology they have. 

There are Christians who still believe blacks should be slaves or not equal by referencing the bible. Infact one of the points against American civil war and the civil right movement was that the bible sanctioned supremacy. Again humans with agendas.

1 hour ago, Hawken said:

Kudos on not been ok with this but again you are less than 1%." Lets make that less than 1% of the Christians you know. As you do not know all Christians after all. Meanwhile, this is the time to point out the fact that, our generation is the "woke one". A lot of young Christians think like i do.

You cant know; I have come across a lot of woke Christians who have been the exact opposite of woke in this country.

 

1 hour ago, Hawken said:

So as regards to NL as a space, atheists should respect the fact that Christians on here are respecting their decision to be agnostic. When you created a thread to that effect, i didn't see any Christian trying to body you or other atheists (compare that to other religious posts on here). That wouldn't have been the case if our parents or their generations were here.

Hmmnn.

I am grateful that I didnt get "bodied" for mentioning I was agnostic but I dont think anyone has gotten "bodied" for mentioning whatever religion they are either. 

In all this i feel like you still think this is a personal attack on Christianity because that is what you keep referencing but I have mentioned both popular religions in Nigeria and I have not separated both. This maybe because that is your religion and that is what you know.

There are several religions and ideologies on NL; i agree with you that everybody should be respected. I am still of the opinion that religion is a touchy subject, we can keep it restricted to a part of the forum and anyone interested in that can go talk about it there. 

I shall also restrain myself from contributing to religious discussion henceforth, I find that nothing gets resolved and I just keep talking. 

Only Heaux discussions from now on 😁😁. 

[bluelion]

18 hours ago, Hawken said:

 

First, there is nothing that cannot be constructively criticized. Religion included. To say otherwise would mean there is no room for change or improvement and that is not true.

Secondly, if people were incapable of separating self from religion like you have said then we wouldn’t have homosexual Christians. As a self serving specie, there is very little we cannot separate ourselves from. The reason you may think otherwise is because we are hypocrites. A lot of Christians do the very things(and worse) that they condemn publicly, in private.

"So any criticism of the religion is taken as a criticism of self. It isn’t just seen as a criticism of self but also attack of a value system." Any criticism? Are you saying because i am a Christian i cannot tell between criticism aimed to mock & ridicule and one aimed to enlighten?

"If I ask a question regarding religion, the response will never be based on just that question, it will be based on the feeling the question invoked. In fact, asking questions has historically led to prosecution and persecution of people." Historically in Christianity yes. Present day? Not so much. Do you see now where constructive criticism comes into play? Also, please do not generalize, your statement insinuates that all Christians are incapable of being objective.

"On respecting other people's decisions/opinions, no religion is a respecter of other people's decisions/opinions". I agree and obviously, atheism is no different. All i see from 80% of atheists is how stupid or ridiculous it is to still believe in a supreme God in 2018.

"The thing is that atheists are doing exactly what religious people have done for years." You mean being a nuisance? Forcing ideals down peoples throats? Mocking other peoples beliefs? Being bigots? You mean the very things that atheists claim to despise? Religion and atheism is beginning to look the same now. By the way, let us not ignore the fact that the worse (i hope) of Christianitys history is in its past. Are atheists going to start slaughtering people now because that's what religious people have done for years? (I know lol, i just felt like reaching)

“So if you are ok with the following;

Entering a bus and having someone preach, your neighborhood church with the loud speakers, your neighborhood mosques with their morning prayers or handing church pamphlets out to random strangers,, You shouldn't take offense at atheists telling you how they feel about your religion.”

I am not okay with any of the above. Never handed pamphlets out in my life and very recently signed a petition against a church that was disturbing my peace.  Am i allowed now to take offense as to HOW atheists express the way they feel about my decision to believe in a supreme God?

I'd like to commend you manner of approach, if everybody adopted it, we wouldn't be having this conversation (pro or con? hehe) but it seems you missed my entire point. Which is;

Atheists ON NL can criticize all they want, all i am asking is that they do so without the mocking, condescending and ITK attitude that they use. Let people hold their beliefs to their chest if they want. Hold yours. But if you are going to question my beliefs, do it respectfully and without scorn. It is not IMPOSSIBLE.

[Hawken]

14 hours ago, Midnighter said:

Only Heaux discussions from now on 😁😁. 

Only heaux discussions yo!! 🙌

[FlyJ]

But how can the Holy Spirit impregnate Mary? Isn't the Holy Spirit invisible? 

I read this somewhere online when I searched for that question and it makes sense to me -

Because Mary herself got pregnant before getting married. Then she lied to everyone that she is still a virgin. Somehow people believed her, and it initiated a cult. That cult later became a religion. The kid was named Jesus.

Interesting!

[kimi]

12 minutes ago, FlyJ said:

But how can the Holy Spirit impregnate Mary? Isn't the Holy Spirit invisible? 

Hahahaha. I practically almost choked on the sweet in had in my mouth. Flyj o....